Talk:Zoot suit

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Chicano, I am pretty sure, is a 1960's neologism, so it is an anachronism in this article. Pachuco might be substituted, but I don't think that is quite right either. I'll try to do some research for a more appropriate term. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 09:02, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chicano was around since at least the WWI era. It's use was strictly a perjorative, usually given by Mexican born parents to criticize their americanized progeny (It still has a negative connotation amongst recent immigrants from Mexico). In the Chicano Movement of the 1960s, however, it's meaning was appropriated to mean a politically an/or culturally conscious Mexican American. It has been somewhat been tied to the gang culture since the 1970s and therefore carries a negative meaning outside of artistic and collegiate circles. Pozole 05:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Origin of zoot

Could somebody verifiy the authenticity of this line:

The word "zoot" probably comes from the French word zut (meaning "damn!")

It seems a bit shady to me, and I don't have the time at the moment to check it out myself. – ClockworkSoul 14:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure on the authenticity of the line, but the translation of zut is wrong. Zut means "darn!" unless I've learned nothing in my 3 years of French.--Penarestel 22:39, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

So what's the difference between "damn" and "darn"? PeteVerdon 15:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Depends on where you are in the world. One can be offensive and the other not.--Penarestel 05:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zoot Suit Riots

I am uncomfortable with the biased approach to discussing the race riots here. A more unbiased approach is suggested.

You need to sign your comment. You also need to specify exactly what it is you think is biased. Tmangray 00:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removal of pachuca

I removed Pachuca as see also. This is a city, not equal to a Pachuco in the USA sense of the word. Additionaly, females associated with pachucos rarely(if ever)wore the same clothes as their male counterparts...I am also removing See also for the tom and jerry cartoon as this is not an existing article. If it were, it would still be better as a "reference in popular culture" --Ccosta 00:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broken link

The external link at the bottom doesn't seem to work... Is there a new address for it? -Russia Moore 01:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rowing Zoot Suit

So how in the world did Zoot Suit come to mean the things we wear while rowing? The tight rowing suits look nothing like "real" Zoot Suits. Strange indeed. Perhaps the ironic Aussie sense of humour at work?--ABVS 05:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Improvement?

Great umbrage is taken to the recent editing of this page which eliminated "African Americans" and "Filipino Americans" from the listed ethnicities who "popularized" this style of clothing in the late 1930s and 1940s and also to the removal of the reference "Harlem Jazz culture" under the "History" heading.

The current interest of the WikiProject Mexican American should not override the fact that the zoot suit is indisputably an "invention" of the urban, swing jazz-related, African American "hep cat" culture of the day; and while the Pachuco connection (before, during and after the Los Angeles turmoil of 1943) clearly warrants extended discussion, it is tangential to the primary subject; and a separate page should be created to address this need.

Meanwhile, this page would be greatly enhanced by reverting to the previous wording and including a properly captioned photograph of the renowned Black entertainer Cab Calloway--on stage in the 1940s and wearing his trademark zoot suit--a vision that should be more evocative and symbolic than any other to aficionados of the style, be they Afro-, Filipino-, Anglo- or Latino-American. (Additionally, a bona fide pop culture icon like Calloway certainly deserves top billing over the cartoon "hepster" imitations--Li'l Abner and Tom and Jerry--who are now featured on the page.)

The Black-oriented films "Stormy Weather" (1943) and "Malcolm X" (1992) should also be listed with the others on this page for their celebration of the zoot suit; and Wikipedia's "Cab Calloway" page (itself greatly in need of enhancements) along with "The Zoot Suit and Style Warfare" page at <http://invention.smithsonian.org/centerpieces/whole_cloth/u7sf/u7materials/cosgrove.html> (among other references) should be listed on this page and any tangential ones that may be created. (151.200.123.149 06:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC))

These are all good points. I especially agree with your statement about restructuring the article to be more about the Zoot Suit rather than cartoons. Per your comments I have looked for public domain images of Cab Calloway in the trademark clothing, but have only found the copy-righted variety on the web. Did you have any picture resources in mind? I have been meaning to improve this article for some time just haven't found the time. I encourage you to be bold and edit the article yourself (i.e., it may be a long time before anyone else gets around to it). Thank you for the comments!--Will.i.am 21:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I concur with the umbrage re: removing the actual origin of the zoot suit. The zoot suit first appears in the 1930s in New York as "drapes" among African American youths. The name "zoot suit" appears to be original to Los Angeles and pachuco slang, and was subsequently used even in NYC. Tmangray 06:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The Introduction and Table of Contents for Mauricio Mazón's book, "The Zoot-Suit Riots: The Psychology of Symbolic Annihilation" is available at <http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exmazzoo.html>. Published in 1984 by University of Texas Press, this information may help clarify needed additions that pertain to Latino and El Paso ("El Chuco"), Texas aspects of this article.

In addition, "Pachuco, Tirilon, and Chicano" by Lurline H. Coltharp is available through JSTOR or the original journal "American Speech," Vol. 50, No 1/2 1975, pp. 25-29 for researched linguistic information on the subject terms.

--chacal la chaise 06:14, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Low Waist / High Waist

I noticed while reverting vandalism that someone had changed "low waisted" to "high waisted". A small correction or subtle vandalism? I don't know if zoot suits SHOULD be high or low waisted, so I'll leave it in someone else's hands.


When Zoot Suits were first around, they were "high waisted". So technically, the suits should be "high waisted". My reference is my grandfather who was around for the pique of Zoot Suit popularity and was an avid wearer in his hay day. -ExodusFire

[edit] Capitalization

I think we should come to a consensus over the capitalization of 'zoot suit' across Wikipedia. The article itself uses two forms of capitalization, 'zoot suit' and 'Zoot Suit', as does the Pachuco article. Personally I think it should be all lower-case but that's just my humble opinion. -Andreas Toth (talk) 23:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)