User talk:Zburh
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[edit] English vs. Anglo-Saxon in reference to Ine's laws
Zburh, I saw your edit summary on the change you recently made to Ine of Wessex. Could you give me a little more detail on your reasoning? The source I cited for the comment, Barbara Yorke's Kings and Kingdoms of Early Anglo-Saxon England, uses "Anglo-Saxon" as compared to "British"; the translation in Whitelock's EHD uses "Welsh" instead of "British", and "Englishman" rather than "Anglo-Saxon". I've tended to use Yorke's terminology because I think "English" and "British" are just not plain enough to a reader unfamiliar with the material; they don't carry the right connotations. "British" is undesirable, just as "English" is, but at least for "English" I feel that "Anglo-Saxon" is a satisfactory substitute.
I don't have access to the original text of Ine's laws, so perhaps you're referring to the word choice there? Mike Christie (talk) 03:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Mike. The text of Ine's laws is available at [1]. See clauses 68 ("Engliscmon", as distinct from "Wealh"), 90 ("Englisc", as distinct from "Wilisc") and 118 ("Engliscne").
- My point in making the change is that "English" does not carry the wrong connotations, and it is the laws of Ine themselves that prove the point. Contrary to the efforts of many modern scholars to avoid seeing what is in front of their noses regarding the origins of the English identity, there is nothing anachronistic about the use of the term as an ethnic identifier when discussing Ine's time or any subsequent period, and it seems likely that the same could be said of earlier periods if only we had the evidence to show it. What the laws show is the extraordinary fact that, in the most formal, public and technical of contexts, the Saxon king of a Saxon kingdom (whose fortunes and perhaps its very survival were threatened by a more powerful and recurrently hostile Anglian neighbour) saw fit to use a single term to characterise the Germanic inhabitants of Britain, and that that term was "English". Unless you argue that the text of the laws was doctored at a later date (which is not a view I have come across anywhere, though that may just show my ignorance), they amount to the most convincing proof that any one source could possibly give that by Ine's time the Germanic peoples of Britain recognised a collective identity encompassing all of them, and that the word they used for it was "English".
- As I see it, it is "Anglo-Saxon" which is the term of dubious validity whose implications are commonly inherently misleading and whose use should at all turns be scrutinised and specifically justified. Apart from the short-lived title formula "Rex Angulsaxonum" I cannot off the top of my head think of any contemporary usage of it, and certainly there is no evidence that anybody ever thought of themselves, or of anyone else, as an Anglo-Saxon. Essentially it is an anachronistic imposition of modern historians, like "Viking" or "Byzantine" (both of which also irritate me, but that's another hobbyhorse for another day). It is a helpful contrivance when dealing with the first formative couple of centuries or so of Germanic society in Britain, but actively obstructive thereafter.
- I realise that this view does not accord with the terminological consensus, and that Wikipedia is keen on consensus. However, given that in this particular case we are dealing with a word which is there in black and white in the actual text and actually conveys to the average modern reader essentially the same meaning that it would have done to its original audience, it seems perverse to replace it with something else.
- I do tend to agree with the replacement of "Welsh" with "British" though, since "Welsh" is so firmly wedded in modern parlance to the people east of the Severn and its unglossed use with its former meaning is liable to mislead many readers.
- Zburh 21:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
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- Those are good points. I think we can leave it as you made it. I am a bit concerned that it introduces the term "English" where previously the word "Anglo-Saxon" had been used to mean the invaders in general, so now the article is a bit inconsistent in its usage. I think it's true to say that a Saxon king using "English" is notable, but it would be good if we can find a scholarly source that points out the notability of this term -- that would allow us to avoid a charge of original research. I don't know of any discussions of terminology that mention this, though. I have seen passing comments (e.g. on the use of Rex Angul-Saxonum) but I haven't read a discussion of the development of English identity that looks at the development of the terminology. Do you know of anything like that? Quite aside from supporting the change you've made, it would be a great source to cite. Mike Christie (talk) 22:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
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- I certainly first became aware of the terminology in the laws and its significance from something that someone else had written, rather than from looking at the text itself or from conversation or whatever, but I cannot just now remember where that was. It may well have been in an article by Patrick Wormald that I read a while back, which examined the question of why the collective term that emerged was derived from Angle rather than Saxon. I may need a bit of time to track it down and check, but I will let you know when I do.
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- Zburh 15:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
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Sorry for the slow reply to your comment on my talk page; but yes, a sentence or two in the Ine of Wessex article sounds sensible. I watch the article, so I'll take a look if you do decide to have a crack at it. Thanks. Mike Christie (talk) 21:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- I see you've found the time; looks good. Thanks for the addition. I really must get hold of that Wormald article; it gets cited a lot. Mike Christie (talk) 23:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Talk page blanking
Hi, I've reverted your blanking of your talk page. It's generally considered bad form on Wikipedia, as it may indicate you are trying to hide something. :-) --Joowwww (talk) 11:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

