Talk:Zaza people
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[edit] ZAZA are Kurds!
Since when did the zaza Kurdish dialect become a seperate ethnicity? I cant believe the word Kurd isnt mentioned in this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.232.216 (talk) 02:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Essay
The following essay was placed in the article Zaza. I have moved it here as more appropriate. Other than fixing bad paragraph formatting it is verbatim. If there are citations for this, the bulk of it might make a very useful addition to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Zaza people are mainly divided into two major groups because of their distinction in belife system. There are northern Zaza people that call them selves Kurmanci but are not related with the kurmanji of the kurds. Te old name that they used to use was Dimilche for their language which nowadays only some of the old people remember. They speak so-be language which means go and come, this name is given mainly to distunguish hare-were of kurdish kurmanji which also means go and come, but is not used to name the language among the native speakers.The people recently started to call them selves as people of Dersim, and their language as Dersim Language. There are aproximatly 1,500 to 2,000 Dersimic people in the world, mainly in big cities of Turkey, Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara and Adana and also in Europe mainly in Germany. There are other branches in Hinis and Varto, geographically apart from main Dersim land. Some also live in Sivas. Their belives are strongly tied with Alewi sect of islam recently, taking power from opposing Sunni islam and calling the Sunnis as Dogs as a cursing word. Also Calling the Kurmanji Kurds as Khurs as another cursing word. The tie with being alewi is mainly strenghtened by the war campaign of Yavuz Sultan Selim,the Ottoman King to Safevids. He might have killed a sizeable number of Alewis including the Dersimic Alewis during his Campaign.
Their religion is very much blended with islam, but many do not know much about religion, but will say that they are muslims when asked. The ones living in northern part of the region claosed to Erzincan are more islamic and try to obey 5 pillars of islam more than the ones living in Tunceli Province. Bolaban Tribe which opposed Russian Army during the time around WW-I are assimilated probably up to a scale that they can not speak the language any more. In the Belief system honesty, self reliablity and hard working is couraged. There are Cem`s instead of islamic prayers in Dersimic Religion, which old Dervishes concantrate some rituals including advices with Saz a kind of musical instrument and Licking a piece of burning wood as Keramet, Miracle to influence the people around. These Cem`s are mainly held near by Jare`s which means places to visit, is either a House of a Dervish or a Tomb or a Stone, Spring or a tree or a special village. People do sleep outside during these Deme`s.
The Religious ranking is Rayver`s Pir`s Bava`s and Ana`s the last two meaning Father and Mother. Kuresi is a the name of the religious tribe where Pir`s and Rayver`s are from. Duzun Bava, Munzir bava are local noble men died centuries ago. Sacrifising animal ceremonies are important. without knowing to be sin They do sacrifize animals nearby Tombs and Jare`s. Because of this Suni people do not eat the animals they sacrifize. In recent years the people, and the young generation became Leftist political view and establised or enrolled in many terrorist activities against the central government which pressed political and national identities. PKK, TKPML, DHKPC are some of the extremist left groups terrorizing the region taking the advantage of its mountaines landscape and are fed by the suburban populations in bigger cities.
The people are massacered after an uprising in 1938 which made the Dersimic Sociaty to change for ever, because of the death of high ranked people, mainly religios and political leaders, rich and educated. Some were deported from the area until 1945`s and send to different places but turned back soon.
Cem Evleri, means gathering Houses play a major role in modernization of Alewi religion. They are fractionized by different political groups and has different rituals.Since being so called Alewi is the cultural Identity of most Dersimic people there are strong ties with non Aryanic Turkish Alewis of Sivas, Corum, Yozgat and also strong ties between the Kurmanji Kurds taht are alewi and living around the area of Malatya, Maras, Bingol, Erzurum, Tokat, Amasya.
Tribes are still distinguishible in the area and even in the cities and people live a closed community life than an publicly open society. Marriages are among themselves and the language is still used by the people aging up to 35 or more as a communication language. Historical events are showing that theories of on these people strongly suggest that they are the decendents of Assasins of Iran-Alamut. Deylamites or the historic Ziyari Governmet has strong ties with the people. They most probably immigrated to the area from Gilan or Rest during the Mongol and Ilkhanite invasion.
Unlike the Northern Zaza`s, southren Zaza people are stricly sunni sect of Muslim but interestingly they share the same alnguage at almost 80% with a different accent. They are spread to the areas around Siverek, Palu, Genc, Bingol, Cermik, Lice, Diyarbakir and are the same people that statted the uprising of Seyh Said during 1920`s. They do involve in Kurdish Uprising against the central govenment accept the Bucak tribe in Siverek. But they are suspicious against PKK which is very much Communist orienated and do not promote relgion and religious freedom at all. --141.150.16.228 01:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)Torne Galfirat--141.150.16.228 01:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi,you wrote a good essay; however, you made a word mistake Northern Zazaki dialect is "Kurmanjki" not "Kurmanci" You can check it on Ethnologue. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kiu
- That appears to be how it is spelled in the article, except in one place where it is a direct quotation of a title. I suspect that there are probably several equally or comparably acceptable spellings. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:31, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Zazaki Wikipedia
Please support our Zazaki Wikipedia project at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Zazaki_.284_Support.29
[edit] There has been already Zazaki Wikipedia here
[edit] How can I deny
I "deny" anything uncited. Please have a read of WP:CITE. As far as I care anything uncited is stuff you are making up. --Cool CatTalk|@ 16:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- Cool Cat, may I assume this is over where you commented out "since both [are] Iranic peoples, they share in many points culturally, linguistically, historically and even politically" and someone else restored it. Cool Cat, would you agree that "linguistically" is documented elsewhere in the article and it is the other points that are at issue? I'm aware that there are some Zaza who consider themselves more distinct from the Kurds than has historically been the view of anthropolgists. Is that what this is about, or am I incorrectly reading between the lines?
- This is not a topic on which I am expert, but I think one could readily find sources that would assert that the Zaza are Kurds, pure and simple, and other sources that say quite the opposite. I don't have any plans of putting a lot of effort into this article; I would suggest that it would be improved by someone finding and citing sources on both sides of this controversial issue, which, as I understand it, has been somewhat exacerbated by the Turkish government's at times favoring those Zaza who do not identify as Kurds. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
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- We should use only reliable sources. There are many political articles telling Zazas are actually Turks or even some of them say Zazas are actually Armenian. There are many publishing sponsored by different governments and political organizations to include Zazas under their ethnic groups. For example, until late 90’s Turkish state universities published articles to prove Zazas are Turks. Recently, a professor named Victoria Arakelova from Yerevan University, Armenia claims that most of the Zazas are from Armenians decent. She had several presentations in the USA and Europe to prove that. I think we should be very suspicious about some sources, especially those prepared for political purposes. It is important about the reliability of the Wikipedia.
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- I think only Western sources should be used here. There are several scholars studied Zazas and Zazaki Language in European and American Universities. Dr. Jost Gippert (http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/gippertj.htm) from Frankfurt University wrote several articles and books about Zazaki Language. Paul Ludwig also from Frankfurt University wrote his doctoral dissertation about the Zazaki Language and published a book about its grammar. In USA, John Gajewski from the University of Connecticut wrote several articles about the Zazaki language. We can also rely on Ethnologue and also other western sources. --69.107.107.182 23:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
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- The thing is that these controversies are themselves notable. I agree that we need to be vary careful on our sources in terms of what we state as factual, but we should also be reporting, contextualizing, and attributing minority and even discredited opinions, if they are widely held. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
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The best thing to do is go and ask Zaza's what they think they are. And fortunately the answer would be "We are more Kurdish then Kurmancis". I'll try my best to improve the article too. Ozgur Gerilla 02:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
- I doubt you would find unanimity among the Zaza on this matter.
- Not only the members of an ethnic group may have meaningful views on the descent of the group. For example, the Pashtun have a widely held belief that they descend from a lost tribe of Israel; few anthropologists agree. - Jmabel | Talk 01:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Aren't Zaza Kurds?!
It is strange that there is almost nothing about Kurds in this article although the majority of Zaza people consider themselves Kurds. And the rest of the Kurds also reagrd them as Kurds. Although Zazaki (the language / dialect of the Zaza) is quite different from the dialect of the majority of the Kurds, i.e., Kurmanji, Zazaki is is given publishing sections or hours in almost every Kurdish broadcasting media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.232.114.203 (talk • contribs) 25 Jan 2006
All minorities and ethnic populations have independant historical backround in Anatolia.The political organizations supports their own idea for Kurdistan ideoloji.In Anatolia,Armenian,Suryanian,Cherkes,Laz(Phontus Rum,Zaza,Turkoman,Jews,Khurmancs(kurd)are ethnic populations. First of all there is no evidence about zaza population to describe like Kurds.Kurds say they are KHURMANC.ZAZA population do not say they are kurd or khurmanc.Zazas calls KHUR for khurmanc.They say "ma khur nime".iTS MEAN IS "WE ARE NOT KHURMANC".Second WORD KIRMANCS mean is KIZILBAS(READ HEAD).However KHURMANCS are KURDS.fOR INSTINCE,Dersim population do not use khurmanc and kurd words and they do not like kurds as well.Dersim population describe their history independantly,they say "we are Dersiman and we are KIZILBASH-ALEVI(READ HEAD-ALEVI).dERSIM kIZILBASHIES ARE NOT MUSLIM AS WELL.They do not recpect the kuran do not believe the holly kuran.On the other hand KURDS ARE MUSLIM,SPEAK KHURMANCI AND ALSO THEY HAVE DIFFIRENT CULTURE AS WELL.Academically these two languages are completely diffrent.These two population do not understand each other.There is no dialect problem.Because they are copletely fiffirent languages.If they were dialects,one of them would be common language, but it is not.Some politic organisations supporters writing something untrue,and they know that it is not true as well.This is a political propaganda.Do not believe them.Because they do not know anything abour ZAZAs history.Thats why they can not show any evidence.There are somo words about their diffirincies:
ZAZA ALEVI ZAZA/KIZILBAHS ZAZA DIMILI DIMILI ZAZA KIRMANC/ZAZA/DERSIMLI/DERSIMAN ZAZACA ZAZAKI DIMILKI KIRMANCKI/ZAZAKI/SO BE KIRMANC/KIRMANCIYE/KIRMANCKI(DERSIM POPULATION)FOR KIZILBASH REGION THEY USE THESE WORDS JUST FOR DERSIM REGION NOT FOR KURDS OR KHURMANCS AND ITS MEANS IS KIZILBASH/ALEVI.Kizilbash Alevies are not muslim.Their belives are completely different.
Furthermore ZAZA name is common.Muslum ZAZA and KIZILBASH ZAZA.aT THE MOMENT dERSIM people wont their otonomy for Dersim geography.They say they are federatif ethnic population with ANATOLIAN FEDERATION.They do not call for themselves khurmanc or kurds.This is just political organisations propaganda like turkish outhority.They won to change the people and make kurds and establish the kurdistan.That is why they call for all generations a Kurd.kHURMANC People do not use the kurd name they say they are khurmanc.Kurd name is politics for other ethnicities.
KHURMANC KHURMANCI KHUR KIRO KURD KURDISH
SORANI
GORANI
eVENTUALLY there is no connection between languages, names,peoples. Finally ZAZA people do not say they are a kurd.There are many khurmancs(kurds)they say they are Turk.
- What is needed to be said is that the kurds consists of two main groups, the today dominating kurmanj(kurmanc) and the goran. The kurmanj were historically from the hakkari region, they were muslim and also nomads and spoke the kurmanji dialect of kurdish(later a northern and a southern,sorani, sub-dialect emerged. The kurmanj had their break through after the battle of chaldiran in 1514(see below).
- The goran (meaning settled) were on the otherhand were agriculturalists or were town dwellers, these were Yazdanis(alevi, yaresani and yezidi) and spoke dimili(zaza), hawrami-gorani. They were dominating kurdish group until the 16-th century when a gradual kurmanjization was comming.
- The perian and osmanian empire now since the 16-th century had a common border, right through the kurdish homeland, with constant wars, pillaging and campaigning. This led to a scorched earth policy by the two empires. This was devestating to the agriculturalist goran-kurds but more "suitable" for the kurmanj nomads who spread from the hakkari region to the North and west and, even though in a slower pace south due to that the south was less affected by the wars.
- The gorans were integrated with the kurmanjs who conquered their lands, there for the today kurmanji speaking muslim kurds may well once have been gorani-kurds. The the gorans are however today found in southern and western parts of Kurdistan. There is also today a clear linguistic connection between the Dimili(zaza) and the Gorans of southern Kurdistan.
- Then one may argue "are the gorans and dimili(zaza) actually kurds?" And my answer is a clear yes perhaps even more kurds than the kurmanjs!
- Some linguists say that dimili(zaza) and gorani is not kurdish(i.e. kurmanji), how ever these linguists forget that the differentiation between if these are different languages or a dialect is purely political. Another example is the Serbian language and the Croatian language who before Yugoslavias fragmentation was considered one language but two dialects. So there is no reason to differentiate Kurdish and Gorani-Dimili(zaza). The claim that they are not kurdish dialects is also quite strange sice the kurmanjs refere to there tongue as kurmanji or kurdi(kurdish). While the gorans, ironically, reffere to their tongue only as Kurdi(kurdish).
- But then of course some Dimili(zaza) reffere them selves as non kurdish as do some kurmanjs for one reason than another. The main reason for Dimili(zaza) to call themselves nonkurds are that they are mainly Alevi while the kurmanj are maily sunni-muslims, this have led to massacres on the alevi population led by muslim fanatics after the fall of the independent kurdish principalities during the 19-th century who were religiously tolerant. But after the fall of the principalities there was no power to stop these religious fanatics and the result was massacres on non-muslims. Consequently some of the Dimili(zaza) alevis have kept a distance from the kurds.
- p.s. the word Kurd is an ethnic name and not a political term.
[[KIRMANCIYE]][DERSIM],KIRMANC[DERSIMAN],KIRMANCKI[DERSIMCE]
I am from Dersim.Dersimans do not call for themselves as a Kurd:MA KIRMANCIME ; MA KHUR NIME!.Thats our description.What does Kirmanc mean?Kirmanc mean is a Kizilbash in Dersim.Dersimans call for kurdS a Khur, which mean is Khurmanc.Khurmanc mean is a KUrd but Kirmanc is not a Kurd.Secondly,Dersimans call for their land as Kirmanciye:KIRMANCIYE WELATE MAWA.MA KIRMANCME MA KHUR NIME."MA KHUR NIME" mean is "we are not kurds".Thats quite clear but yuth generation have been asimilated by political organisations by Turkish outhorities.Thats why they lost their identity and they cann not support their original identity.Go Dersim and ask elder people they will describe themselves as a Dersiman[KIRMANC/KIZILBASH].
Dersimans are not Kurd or Zaza.Anyone can speak different languages at anytime but it does not mean they are all same population.For instince young Dersimans in Germany speaks German. so how can we call for them as a German?It's sociologically not true.On the other hand how can different populations do understand each other in same country?One language has to be common.That shows us there are different ethniciies and languages.We do not care about diffirent countries examples.How can we compare them?We are living in Anatolia and Anatolia is a great geoghrapical region for different cultures,religions,languages and identities.Please do not think poloticaly about history.
Furthermore Dersimans are Kizilbash:Their religion is Kizilbashiszm:Itiqate dersimi:Itiqate KIRMANCIYE.They are not muslim but Zazas and Kurds are Muslim.
Dersimans generaly speak Zazaki/Kirmancki/Dersimce/zone ma/so-be[one language but different names] but they do not call for their populations as Zaza.Because Dersim population is completely different and an ethnicity. Again there is no evidence about Zazas and Dersimans described as a Kurdish population.Kurdistan ideoloji is so different.Dersim region does not eccept their language and religion and culture.There is no common history,common language and culture so how can it be one nation?Thats polotical idea.If it was about Kurds that would be right but for Zazas and Dersimans is not true.
If someone need some evidence about zazaki/kirmancki they can look www.zazaki.de.There are some articles about Zaza language. www.themunzur.org
I also believe that Zaza's are Kurds, there is no evidence to prove the opposite either. A lot of Zaza's still claim that they are Kurds and I think that Zaza nationalism is just another way to seperate and weaken the Kurds, even though we live so seperated already. Zaza nationalism only appeared recently and I have never read any claims of an independant "Zazaistan" before the 80's. It's a shame that there are a lot of wikipedia articles about Zaza's where Kurds aren't even mentioned.--Bijikurdistan 13:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Historic Roots of the Zaza People??!!
The article says:
Some linguistics think the ancestors of the contemporary Zazas immigrated between the 10th and 11th centuries to their present-day homeland in eastern Anatolia from southern regions of Caspian Sea Some linguists connect the word Dimli with the Daylamites in the Alborz Mountains near the shores of Caspian Sea in Iran and believe that the Zaza have migrated from Daylamestan towards the west.
How ever some historians think the opposite, that the migration was in the opposite direction: from "their present day homeland" to "Daylamestan". The Dilaman (Dimila/Zaza) homeland is also, acording to the Zoroastrian holy book, Bundahishn in the headwaters of the Tigris, as it is today. This points to that the Dimila/Zaza migrated TO the Caspian sea not the opposite.
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- You have a valid point and I think it should be corrected. Fransoi 18:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Correction
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- The title of the article is not proper. This is their language which by some linguists is considered apart from other Kurdish dialects not their ethnicity. Zazas speaking any language ethnically are a branch of Kurds. It should be corrected. Fransoi 17:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
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- Yes, you are right. I agree with you. Zazas are ethnically a branch of Kurds. AbdulRahman 18:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- They might be related (as their languages are related). But, this does not imply that Zazas are ethnically a branch of Kurds. Bidabadi 01:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. I agree with you. Zazas are ethnically a branch of Kurds. AbdulRahman 18:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
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- The Dimili/Zazas are ethnical Kurds and their language is kurdish, Dimili/Zaza is a dialect of kurdish. All Dimile/zazas that i have met considre themselves as Kurds. About the classification of languages, many linguists (who mean that Zaza is not kurdish) forget the historical aspect of the matter. They consider the Kurmanj to be Kurds and the norm, this is however wrong since Kurmanji spread from the Hakkari region during the medieval times northward and southward during the 16-th century. Before this Kurds spoke Pahlawani- a southern branch: Gorani and a northern: Dimili/Zazai. This conection is however ignored by linguists and the fact that the gorani and zazai refer to their dialect as ´´Kurdi´´ while the kurmanj refer to ´´Kurmanji´´. So who is more Kurd? I´d say the Gorani and Zazai. Remember that the difference betwen a language and a dialect is political. Serbo-croatian became, after the war in Yugoslavia, Serbian and croatian and bosnian. Swedish, Danish, Norwegan and icelandic could well be one language with dialects, but due to the political borders they are four different languages. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.65.146.201 (talk • contribs) 29 April 2006.
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This article is an Anti-Kurdish viewpoint of the turkish regime. Zazas ever have been the most pure Kurds. By saying they are not Kurds, turkeys want not only to insult and attack Zazas but even all other Kurds. http://countrystudies.us/turkey/28.htm
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- To whom is neutral:
- Language: http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9046467/Kurdish-language
- Genetic:http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2005.00174.x
- Ethnicity genrally: http://countrystudies.us/turkey/28.htm
Some stupid hypothesis by some biased anti-Kurdish individuals does not change any thing from the fact that Zazas are part of the Kurdish people.
[edit] Map is original research
All,
The Map Image:Moderniranianlanguagesmap21.PNG which has been presented in this article as fact, is an original research work by User:Imperial78. It needs to be specified that the map is not necessarily objectively sourced, but is instead a user-created illustration.--Zereshk 02:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Religion and Zazas
I noticed "Christian" was added, somewhat hastilly, to the Zaza-religions thread. Any references for this? My impression from friends in the Istanbul zaza community (two of whom are Zaza folklorists) was that the large majority of Zazas were Alevi, the large minority Sunni, and that there were a small number who were Yezidi or Christian. I need to check the exact number, but Tünceli has something like 90% Alevi-Zaza villages.
Does anyone have a copy of Peter Alford Andrews, Ethnic Groups in the Republic of Turkey handy? That would provide the most accurate assessment of the religious distribution of Zazas, at least in the 1960s, when most of the research data was from.
Second, I think this line must go. "The religious division is very strong among Zazas which prevents them to interact with each other." It's bad English, for starters, and I can provide you many examples from recent experience that refute this claim and demonstrate to the contrary a unifying of Zazas. Unless, of course, someone has a source they wish to cite and can situate the "religious division" in a specific place at a specific time.
Also, where does the spelling "Alavi-Zaza" come from - is it a Zaza term or transliteration? The Turkish spelling would be "Alevi-Zaza."
--oudplayer 10:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
- My guess would be that you know the topic better than whoever wrote these sentences. Be bold! (but cite reliable sources if at all possible). - Jmabel | Talk 18:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ludwig Paul
The provenance of the Ludwig Paul material cited is very unclear. The online cited material appears to be photocopied from an unnamed book. It is likely to be a copyright violation by the site hosting it. We should identify the actual source of this material and credit it appropriately. - Jmabel | Talk 01:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Zaza been influenced by Turkish
Denizz keeps reverting sentences added by me which I try to make the topic as objective as possible. This user pushes a political agenda on such thing and cannot even source the argument properly. Zazaki is an Indo-Iranian language considered as a dialect of Kurdish and has not much to do with Turkish or Turkic languages, even if one knew or analysed the languages linguistically one cannot find much similarities, this is another way of pushing Turkish supremity in Turkey and Anatolian related articles. Matter of fact, this can be proved by sourcing a dictionary but is those users who write such nonsense going to be bothered; well what ever the case, I will source a Zazaki dictionary and if these users can find more than 100 words of Turkish origin in the Zazaki language then I will accept the insertion but if they can't please do not insert irrelevant, assuming and politically effected arguments. This is the article of an ethnic group populated from 2-6 million and doesn't deserve such unfair or unreasonable propositions. Özgūr Talk Hist 01:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, I looked at whats being disputed here, and I must also say that Even though Zazaki is an Iranian Language, it is recently influenced by Turkish language.[citation needed] sounds very POV, especially because its not even sourced (which brings into question why Deniz is pushing for unsourced information).Azerbaijani 01:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would also like to as why this statement is so important: Moreover, the US State Department "Background Note" lists Zaza as one of the languages of Turkey, along with Turkish (official), Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, and Arabic[5]
- Its merely pointing out the obvious, I'm not even sure if its necessary. Zazaki is a language of Turkey as Kurdish is a language of Iraq or as Azeri is a language of Iran. Thats my 2 cents, hope it helps.Azerbaijani 01:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- First, I am not the one who wrote that sentence, but I am the one who restored it and put a fact tag there. It is a feasible thing, in fact the normal thing because of cultural interactions. We should give the editor who added that sentence a chance to provide sources. Now, if you are saying that since it is such a normal thing, it might be POV pushing if you write it, than it is another story. If the editor who added it can find a good source, then it also means that it is worthy of being there, and not POV pushing; so, it should stay there. If this is not the only thing that is disputed with my revert, please mention here (like why you remove sourced info, discredit a newspaper, etc). I am going to revert. Please don't revert back until we reach a consensus. My edit summary there explains everything. Also don't accuse me of attacking someone when I am not. See WP:Consensus. DenizTC 12:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I think the user who wrote this should come back and source the information but until then it is only appropriate to leave the argument out of the article and we have here a discussing ongoing now so the user who demands it to be displayed shall find acceptable source. As per Azerbaijani, it is nonsense to keep the argument at this stage and as I said before the argument of been influenced cannot be proven; I motivate you to pick up a Zazaki dictionary and pinpoint those words which have Turkic origins (even if you find such words, I may easily disagree and prove that it is the result of Turkic-Iranian cultural interaction that has a long history). This is probably the most efficient way to halt this problem and has no exceptions, meaning that such argument that has a large practical implication should be well sourced. If not it has no place in the article. I am sure Turkish users revert edits of arguments that argue that the Turkish language is heavily influenced by Persian and Arabic; which in a sense is true considering the fact of the amount of words loaned from those languages. But this nevertheless is not a good argument because proving it is much more difficult than disproving it. I repeat the language is not influenced by Turkish in my opinion and users who want to have such unreasonable arguments should be able to source it very well and objectively. Özgūr Talk Hist 13:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let me pot Wikipedia's policy:
- If it is doubtful but not harmful to the whole article, use the {{Fact}} tag to ask for source verification, but remember to go back and remove the claim if no source is produced within a reasonable time.
- If it is doubtful and harmful, you should remove it from the article; you may want to move it to the talk page and ask for a source, unless you regard it is as very harmful or absurd, in which case it should not be posted to a talk page either. Use your common sense. Do not be inappropriately cautious about removing unsourced material; it is better for Wikipedia to say nothing on an issue than to present false or misleading material. (See here: [1])
Ok, this sentence is obviously harmful, as it is causing an edit war, furthermore, this sentence has been in the article since atleast Novermeber 6, 2006, and still doesnt have a source ([2]) the only conclusion I can come to is that Wikipedia policy say it must be removed.Azerbaijani 13:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Azerbaijani, the fact tag wasn't there since November (I might be the first one to have put the fact tag, and I did it just yesterday). As a matter of fact, the fact that the sentence had been there since November (in fact since January 2006) indicates a strong (previous) consensus if nothing else. So many people (including Özgür) have edited the article so many times since then. If you guys insist that that sentence has been harmful, I am not going to insist any more for keeping the sentence with the fact tag. But what about the rest? Özgür, you should revert yourself, then I can remove the sentence with the fact tag. Once again, please see WP:Consensus. You are making a big change here, we need to have consensus before we put them on the article. I still don't understand why you insist on discrediting that newspaper. DenizTC 14:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm not going to revert or engange in edit warring in this article. I just came by and saw there was a dispute here and thought I'd help. Also, the sentence being there for so long does not imply consensus, as many times thigns get put into articles that people dont notice.Azerbaijani 15:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I seriously don't think there is a need for consensus and further more I do not think reverting my self is reasonable. The blatant of the matter is that the argument is insufficient in providing source and had its time in the article. I encourage everyone who sees these type of arguments to take action to better Wikipedia. Finally, I think not only me but everyone shares a common knowledge that the Turkish newspapers have a long history of biases when it comes to ethnical related subjects, thus it cannot be considered as "well source" even if we analyze the nature of it; a Turkish related subject been commented by a Turkish newspaper seems a little ironic to say the least! Özgūr Talk Hist 17:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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What do you mean with 'there is no need for consensus'? Also, it seems to me that you are discrediting that newspaper just because it is a Turkish newspaper, and I don't like that. It's reporting a research, and the same research had been reported by many newspapers (including at least one Kurdish newspaper, I don't remember the name now). It is enough to have one newspaper, and we have that one. When I said revert yourself, what i meant is that, since we have been discussing only one small part of your edit, just one sentence, lets revert your edits, and remove that sentence. Apparently you do not have valid reasons for other edits. Anyway, I am going to do that revert, and remove the 'bad sentence' for now. By the way, the 'bad sentence' was added by anon (71.198.76.135, talk page, contributions) who seems to be quite knowledgeable on the subject, as a matter of fact, a great part of the info on the main page is added by him/her. DenizTC 22:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Go ahead start a consensus, I am absolutely fine with it, but do not edit or change those sentences as if you own the place. You have no right to delete well arguments with good sources which try to convey objectivism in such controversial issues. The newspaper you've mentioned has been racist towards Kurds in its history and the research is not supported by Kurdish organisations, but this hasn't got much to do with the main issue. It is a fact it is a Turkish newspaper and it is worth mentioning it in the article since the Kurdish organisations are forbidden under Article 301. I want this article to be as objective as possible so please do try to understand me in this but as Azerbayjani is pointing out the arguments are not well sourced so don't deserve to be there. Finally please let's come to a conclusion instead of editing. Özgūr Talk Hist 00:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Also as you backed such arguments to be on the article and a person who knows Turkish please listen to this modern Zazaki song and tell me how many words you spot that are also in the Turkish or even in the Turkic languages or even Altaic languages. http://youtube.com/watch?v=fXyhitINbuA Özgūr Talk Hist 00:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Whats the point of this statement:
- The US State Department "Background Note" lists Zaza as one of the languages of Turkey, along with Turkish (official), Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, and Arabic[1]
- Isnt it pointing out the obvious? This statement combined with the one after it suggest that one is meant to mean that Zaza is Turkic while Britannica says its not...The US department source simply states the obvious, that Zaza langauge is a language spoken in Turkey.Azerbaijani 23:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] POV, History of Zazas
The last paragraph under the History of Zazas section looks fishy. It is obviously a POV.
- Why is it POV? It is not POV, just use your common sence, the Dilaman in the caspian region is known only since the middle ages. According to the Bundahishin however Dilaman was in the headwaters of the Tigris where it still is. Knowing this it is only logical that they moved FROM this original Dilaman TO the Caspian Dilaman. It is not POV it is just a logical and very fair statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.225.3.158 (talk) 22:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I think there are serious POV issues. In particular, opinions are not clearly attributed. - Jmabel | Talk 23:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] ZARA ARE KURDS!!!!!!!!!
Hello! There is a truth that no one can ever deny. The Zaza people are an undivided part of THE KURDISH people in Kurdistan, they speak a dialect of KURDISH. They ARE KURDS!!!! Zaza is NOT a different population, they are a part of the Kurdish population. Compare a yorkshirer, is a yorkshirer a part of the british-english people??? of course they are! the same with zaza, they are orgin kurds, as yezidi kurds, shabak kurds, sorani kurds, kurmanci kurds, fayli kurds, hawrami kurds, kakayi kurds and so on. NO ONE CAN DNEY THAT!!! NO ONE CAN CHANGE THE THING THAT ALREADY EXISTS!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.154.127 (talk) 22:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh, really! I deny that the Zaza are Kurds - which has in itself just disproved you shout-out-loud rant. Kurdish activists in Turkey and in Europe seek to call as many people "Kurds" as they can, in order to increase Kurdish population numbers and thus their importance within Turkey. What next, will they be calling the Laz "Kurds"? Meowy 21:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Confusing
What does the article mean by "modern western in the Zaza language"? Makes no sense at all. - Jmabel | Talk 23:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Original research to be removed
- Here is a pure OR: The first mention of the word Zaza appears on the Behistun Inscription. The text of the inscription is a statement by Darius I of Persia. In the inscription Darius says, “there (is) a town Zazana by name along the Euphrates.
- First of all I want to make it clear that no scholar has ever linkd modern Zazas (Dimilis) with Zazana/Zozana of Behistun inscription.
- second, The word Zazana of the Behistun inscription is connected to ancient Semitic Gozana (a toponym) and likely in ancient Semitic languages simply meant 'highland'.
- thirdly in medieval documents this Zozana or Gozana is descripted as Zuzan al akrad i.e. highlands of Kurds and not Zazas or others. So unfortunately it has nothing to do with Zazas.
- Fourth; Another important OR point is that actually the original name of Zazas id Dimili and scholars largely consider it to be the same as Daylami, that is people from Daylamistan from northern Iran. Scholars such as Minorsky and Mackenzie suggest around 12th century AD as date of migration of some tribes of Daylamis from northern Iran to parts of Kurdish mountains.
- I'll remove all OR data. Sharishirin (talk) 11:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Move to Dimili people
The name Zaza is pejorative and is not used in academic encyclopedias. Sharishirin (talk) 13:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

