Talk:Zero tolerance (schools)
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This page is established as a fork from zero tolerance. This is the relevant material from the talk page:
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[edit] Neutral as nitric acid
The lack of citation, the inlining of opinion quotes, the general lack of substance; that the audience might be generally sympathetic to the point of view would appear to be the only reason this article didn't already have a neutrality tag. If clear sources can't be given then large parts of this should be excised.
Further, two hundred examples of wrongdoing don't add any more than the current twenty of so. ZT is more than just "some idiot overreacted to something". Air your grievances on you livejournals, childs. Thumper 00:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Alleged bias
Thumper, if you think this article is biased, then provide evidence supporting the effectiveness of zero tolerance. If the article is biased, such evidence should be very easy to produce. Otherwise, the article isn't biased and the tag will have to be removed. Will three days be enough time for you to produce the evidence?
- The utilitarian policy assumption is that inflexibility is a deterrent because, no matter how or why the rule was broken, the fact that the rule was broken is the basis for the imposition of the penalty. This is intended as a behaviour modification strategy, i.e. because those at risk know that it may operate unfairly, they may be induced to take even unreasonable steps to avoid breaking the rule. This is a standard policy in rule- and law-based systems around the world on "offences" as minor as traffic violations to major health and safety legislation for the protection of employees, those living nearby and the environment. So merely listing particular examples alleged to be unfair in the school system is unhelpful. As in all other systems, the school system is predicated on the exploitation of its inherent unfairness. So why is there no "balancing" list of those people who resisted breaking the rules because of the threat of the known unfairness? Alternatively, why is Wiki acting as the advocate of zero tolerance by highlighting these examples of unfairness? Surely, the mass publicising of these examples of unfairness serves the schools' purpose by frightening students into conformity. An objective and NPOV assessment might be considered a reassurance to students that, out of the millions of student acts and omissions each and every school day, only an infinitesimal percentage prove to be unfairly penalised. David91 04:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
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- You've made a good start. However, we still need someone to provide research evidence that supports zero tolerance. There is empirical research evidence that it's ineffective.
- The issue isn't really whether ZT is effective. The issue is that the article is written not from a perspective of explaining what ZT is, but rather one of ensuring that the reader comes away disproving of it by making the article little more than a list of controversial punishments. Chris Cunningham 19:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- You've made a good start. However, we still need someone to provide research evidence that supports zero tolerance. There is empirical research evidence that it's ineffective.
- You misunderstand my intention. I am not going to write anything on the North American school system because I know nothing about it. I simply pointed out that a mere list of examples without a proper context is POV. Since you may have greater expertise on the subject than I, you should consider whether there is any empirical evidence at all, whichever POV you espouse. If there is nothing more an anecdotal evidence on either side, you should very clearly state that fact and consider eliminating all opinion statements. As it is, all you have are self-serving examples. Simply transplanting a point from the talk page to the article is not going to save this page on the school issue. You should first address the nature of the school discipline system in North America (since all your examples currently come from that part of the world). Who drafts these rules? What policies do they seek to enforce? Who reviews them before implementation? Who administers the rules once in force? What safeguards by way of an appeal, if any, are put in place? etc. etc. etc. Then you should consider how many times students are penalised under these rule systems and identify what proportion of those so penalised may be considered more than unfairly treated. Then you should consider whether the example made of those particular students had any undue effect on the overall discipline system in the given school or school district. Did the student body rise up in revolt like the French students currently attacking government policy on employment, and threaten to burn the school down unless the student's penalty was remitted? Or did everyone put their heads down and take extra care not to break the same rule? If so, was that a bad thing? It is not for an anonymous user to challenge Thumper or anyone else to produce evidence. If you want to defend this page, you should produce evidence and completely restructure the piece on schools to avoid it from being considered POV. To compare systems, you might wish to consider this month's House of Lords ruling on an English school's refusal to allow a female student to wear a jilbab as an expression of her religious beliefs. Every country has laws about rules and they way they work. If they work unfairly, these rules can be challenged in court. A balanced article would consider what remedies are available in North America and the extent to which the students actually penalised have exercised their right to a judicial review of their penalties. If there are no such cases, an inference might be that no North American court would hold the rules or the penalties imposed unfair. David91 17:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] References
Please do not remove the {unreferenced} template or the [fact] requests until you have complied with Wikipedia:Cite sources. Every assertion currently unreferenced should either be verified by a "proper" citation or deleted. David91 19:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] References
Dear David- I have checked the wikipedia reference guidance information and can't figure out in what way my references are not proper. If you will please please be so kind as provide me that information it would be most helpful. Many thanks.David Justin 19:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- I am pleased and relieved that you are interested in learning how to write a balanced encyclopedia entry. In the entry above, I did take the trouble to set out the issues you would need to address to make the piece more objective. At present, you are doing no more than reporting news which is biased and not encyclopedic. It is biased in the sense that it wishes to frame the reader's reaction as "Wow! That is unfair!" Instead of reporting a factual context, e.g. that the student had been a disciplinary problem for years, the episode is made to appear notable by deliberately suppressing all information that might enable the reader to reach a contrary opinion. I agree that some references have now appeared. Unfortunately, they are not obviously acceptable. For example, "Scaringi, D. "Zero Tolerance Needed for Safe Schools." St. Petersburg (FL) Times, June 24, 2001." seems to be a newspaper opinion piece. As such, it does not match the requirement for a verifiable source. To be a verifiable source, the publication you cite should be of a proper standard. All that you have done is to find a journalist who holds the same opinion that you do. I will leave you to remove the offending "sources". To be NPOV, you have to produce information on all sides of the debate, and you have to be able to cite verifiable authority. If you cannot cite verifiable authority, you are not supposed to put the information in. I was subjected to major criticism for simply entering content from memory. I ended up having to send for photocopies of journal articles to justify the entry. Pending that, my information did not go into the article space. It is a tough rule, but we are aiming to produce something of quality here. David91 02:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Content
Supporters of zero tolerance policies claim that such policies are required to create an appropriate environment (Scaringi, 2001; Noguera, 1995). They also point to examples of persons in authority providing lax discipline in the past, with a resulting breakdown in order (for example, in a school environment)(Scaringi, 2001). Some supporters also argue that the mass publicising of examples of unfairness serves the schools' purpose by frightening students into conformity. They point to the millions of student acts and omissions each and every school day, only an infinitesimal percentage of which prove to be unfairly penalised.(Noguera, 1995)
What do these assertions mean? These "policies are required to create an appropriate environment" Who requires them? Appropriate to whom and for what? Why do "these supporters" refer to past laxness when their concern is current indiscipline. Were the rules always in place and not enforced, or did "these supporters" rewrite the rules? Then you quote me but attribute the quote to Noguera in 1995. You should not invent citations. I could go on but I do not want to appear gratuitously unkind. In all seriousness, it would be better to throw all this content away and start again with a blank screen to build up a balanced and verifiable piece. David91 03:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't write this piece but tried to make it an acceptable article by deleting many of the examples of ZT abuse and by referencing content. It appears that a lot of people don't like the content but aren't willing to do any work to improve it; it's much easier to criticize than to create.David Justin 03:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- If I had the expertise, I would rewrite this element, but I know nothing about the North American education system. If it was about the European system, I would already have rewritten the element. It is not a case of either liking or disliking the content. NPOPV requires editors to present all relevant views fairly. The objection to the schools element is that, as currently configured, it is POV. Rather than simply deleting it, I will move the material to its own page, and leave you and any others who come along to deal with matters there. David91 04:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Citations
Some of the citations on this page are clearly fakes. All should be independently verified before being accepted. David91 13:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Title
Shouldn't this article be titled Zero-Tolerance Policy in North American Schools. It doesn't discuss zero-tolerance in any other context. In addition, the article doesn't summarize the offences not tolerated by the schools (consumption of alcohol and the possession of weapons are given as examples). As it stands, this article belongs within a more general entry on the North American education system, or within an entry on school disciplinary policies. There is scope for a separate entry, however, without a list of offences and a balanced assessment of the arguments for and against zero-tolerance, the entry should be reduced to a few lines and exported to another more general article. Pvazz 03:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Definition
What is a 'zero tolerance policy', anyway? The examples given are of individual administrative acts, not of policies. Nearly all seem to be drawn from high schools in the USA. Is that coincidence?
When did 'zero tolerance policies' begin? What was the first?
This article is sadly lacking is substance.

