Talk:Zazaki
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This page was originally created in the Transwiki namespace and carried into the main namespace. Original author information:
(cur) (last) 22:43, Jun 17, 2004 62.80.19.178
The article currently asserts that "Hurrian... was a member of the Denge 2 Caucasian language family." I have never heard of a "Denge 2 Caucasian language family" and a Google search for
- denge caucasian "language family"
turns up nothing. Can someone correct this? -- Jmabel 20:14, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)
The denge 2 caucasian language family may not turn up any results as it is an experimantal language group, with not much linguistic research, i would be happy to change the term to the alarodian group which is a commoner term, but is seen to be unscientific since much of its research is based on unverifiable sources such as herodudtus' historires ans xenophons anabasis.user:Avenger
Alarodian languages would seem to be commonly used. Given that there seems to be no online citation for "Denge 2 Caucasian", if you want to also mention that term in the article you probably should cite a specific published work that contains the term. Otherwise, it seems to be unverifiable original research, which is a wikipedia no-no. -- Jmabel 00:50, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)
Has anybody a citeable reference to the Hurrian influences in Zazaki? -- Pjacobi 06:58, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've reverted "Iraqi Zazaland/Zazaistan/Zazana" to the more common "Iraqi Kurdistan". The latter is a common term, well-known to anyone who knows the region. I'm not saying that the former are totally bogus, but I'm going to need to see a citation from somewhere at least moderately authoritative before I believe it. I googled "Zazaland" and mostly discovered that the term comes up in rather sleazy online bulletin boards in a way having nothing to do with this ethnic group. -- Jmabel 02:05, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Very confusing
I have no idea what to make of the 17:29, Sep 5, 2004 by User:62.80.19.178. I simply do not know the topic well enough to know whether this makes that article more or less accurate. Please, please, please will people start citing some sources? A bunch of you keep contradicting each other and no one is citing anything. I will admit that I tend to be more suspicious of the anonymous contributions, because there is no easy way to look at whether the person's work on topics I know is generally solid, but will someone with a clue on this topic please add some decent citations to this article?
I can't really help you on this, but to say that the editing by User:62.80.19.178 looks rather moderate in comparasion. On the german wikipedia the articles related to Zaza are regulary protected or vandalized. It seems to be some sort of "classification struggle", which is a emotionally hot issues for those involved. For the languages (but, with even less certainty, for the ethnic groups), it's whether to classify:
- Northwestern Iranian
- Kurdish
- KURMANJI
- other sublanguages/dialects of Kurdish
- Dimli
- Kurdish
or
- Northwestern Iranian
- Kurdish
- KURMANJI
- other sublanguages/dialects of Kurdish
- Zaza-Gorani
- Dimli
- Kurdish
But we already switched to the latter classification, also given by Ethnologue [1].
So the remaining question here, is of naming the region. I'll try the best compromise I see, without being an expert.
Pjacobi 07:45, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Kurdish
Once again, and without comment, someone anonymously removed all references to Kurdish. I have reverted. There may be a legitimate case here, I don't know, but unless someone actually states this on the talk page, it looks more like vandalism to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:35, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Page title
I have moved this page from "Zazaki" to "Zazaki language" at the request of "BogdanGiusca" in the #Wikipedia IRC channel. I had to perform this because this destination title was already used by a long-disused stub for the same topic. I have merged that page's history with this page's, since they did not overlap. The last edit to the old page was around 3 June 2004, and the first edit to the current article was around 4 June 2004. - Mark 13:00, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Kurds... yes Kurds...
Zazas are Kurds and zazaki is a dialect of kurdish language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.152.101 (talk • contribs) 13 Oct 2005
- For what it may be worth, the following was recently cut from the article. If anyone has a good citation for this, or something comparable, I would gladly see it restored. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
[begin cut material]
However, those who view the Zaza people primarily as Kurds tend to favor:
- Northwestern Iranian languages
- Kurdish language
- Kurmanji language
- other sublanguages/dialects of Kurdish
- Dimli/Zazaki
- Kurdish language
[end cut material]
I am not a linguist, but after the slow but enduring revert warring over this, I finally left this version out. The linguistic family tree I've seen on the web doesn't support it, and I assume the question of grouping as Kurds is more a cultural and political question and belongs to Zaza people. --Pjacobi 11:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] OpenCourseWare
The OpenCourseWare link is about Zazaki, but the main pages isn't that obvious. See:
Pjacobi 21:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Comparison between Zazaki, English, Kurdish, and Turkish
There should be a Persian column.
| Persian | Zazaki (Kirmancki) | English | Kurdish | Turkish |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| deh | dew | village | gund, dê | köy |
| gêran | vay** | expensive | buha, bay, way | pahalı |
| angoşt | gışt,bêçîk | finger | engust, bêçî | parmak |
| nâm-zad | waşte | fiance | xwastig (Senendecî), wîstû | Sözlü |
| xûk | xoz | pig | xwîg, xûg | domuz |
| gerye | bermayiş | cry | giryîn | aglamak |
| xoda | heq, hûmay | god | xwedê, xuda, heq (among Yarsan Kurds) | tanrı |
| asb, asp / astar (mule) | ostor,estor | horse | hesp, esp / hêstir (mule) | at |
| dirouz | vızêr | yesterday | duh, do, heyzî | dun |
| bâleş | birna,balisna | pillow | balîf, bâliş | yastık |
- "vay" in Persian means plentiful, so dose "gerân" witch is commonly used in the meaning of expensive.
Persian words from "Farhange farsi" by Dr. Mohammad Moin. Input by ShazdePesar
-
- Kirmancki "vay" comes from "biha", "buha" > (b>v) --> "viha" with current final "y" (e.g. ra-y, hûma-y) --> "vay".
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.211.201 (talk • contribs) 13 Jan 2006
[edit] Zazaki Wikipedia
Please contribute to our Zazaki Wikipedia project at: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/diq
[edit] German Wikipedia
Please note thet the German Artikel de:Zazaische Sprache recently got a major overhaul and now has a very detailed section on grammatics etc. Whereas I'm a native speaker of German, I'd prefer to give the task of translation someone other, preferably a native speaker of English with a fair notion of Linguistics. All the comparisons with German obviously need to be replaced with comparisons to English, which looks like a hefty piece of work. --Pjacobi 11:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'll put in a request at Wikipedia:German-English translation requests. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Origins
Some linguistics think the ancestors of the contemporary Zazas immigrated between the 10th and 11th centuries to their present-day homeland in eastern Anatolia from southern regions of Caspian Sea Some linguists connect the word Dimli with the Daylamites in the Alborz Mountains near the shores of Caspian Sea in Iran and believe that the Zaza have migrated from Daylamestan towards the west.
How ever some historians think the opposite, that the migration was in the opposite direction: from "their present day homeland" to "Daylamestan". The Dilaman (Dimila/Zaza) homeland is also, acording to the Zoroastrian holy book, Bundahishn in the headwaters of the Tigris, as it is today. This points to that the Dimila/Zaza migrated TO the Caspian sea not the opposite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.65.146.201 (talk • contribs) 15 May 2006.
[edit] Comparison
The language comparison columns should be extended to other kurdish dialects aswell. This since the Kurdish part is only in the north kurmanji dialect, wich is the most remote dialect to Dimili/Zaza. There should also be Hewrami (or Kurdi as the hewramis self call their dialect) since this is the closest dialect to Dimili/Zaza. Even South Kurmanji(sorani) is closer to Dimili/Zaza due to the effect Hewrami/Gorani has had on it.
For the Kurdish geneaology of the kurdish language and its dialects see this link, http://www.kurdishacademy.org/maps/map-01.html
Besides the positioning of the columns are quite strange. Dimili/Zaza should be to the very left of the comparison-window, next to Kurdish (preferably to Hewrami and then other dialects) then persian and turkish and english. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.66.17.145 (talk • contribs) 26 May 2006.
- I think there should be a comparison column between the Zazaki dialects. I would like to see a small comparison between Northern, Central, and Southern Zazaki. --Daraheni 00:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This anonymous uncommented edit made some changes in the Kurdish. I have no knowledge of this myself; I'd appreciate assurance from a knowledgable user with an actual account and some contribution history that it is correct. - Jmabel | Talk 06:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
- I made the changes in the collumn as i belive it's more significant to include the kurdish words that are the closest to the Dimili/Zaza words. As there are more than one word in kurdish for these words presented it's more significant to include the "close" words and exclude the others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.226.218.223 (talk • contribs) 11 August 2006.
[edit] The 1965 Turkish census
The 1965 Turkish census is totaly false. My hometown alone has 250,000 Zazaki speakers. Zazas mainly live in 8 proviences of Turkey. According to ethnologue, "Between 1.5 and 2.5 million speakers (including all dialects)" [2] exist in Turkey, and this is only for one dialect. If we add the population of Zazaki speakers who live outside Turkey, the population of Zazaki speakers will be well above 3 million people.--75.2.136.45 16:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I am sure you are correct: it is a complete lie for propaganda purposes. I think that should be evident on the face of it. I think that just putting the number in the article, juxtaposed with other numbers, should make that clear. Still, if you can find something citable calling out the lie, I would consider that a positive addition to the article. - Jmabel | Talk 23:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Persian words
I was reading some articles in ZaZa langauge. I almost understood everything, (I speak Persian). I know Zaza is also an Iranian language but I did not know how many Persian words it has. It seems like 70% of the words are Persian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.66.84 (talk • contribs) 19 November 2006.
[edit] Populaton of Zazas
The 1965 Turkish census counted 171,057 Zazas (%0.54 of total population), divided into 150,644 native and 20,413 second-language Zazaki speakers. However, the 2000 Turkish census counted 3,235,097 Zazaki speakers (including native and second-language speakers). --Daraheni 08:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Zazaki and the Caspian Languages - A little verb Comparison
Can that be a coincidence?
English - Kurdish - Gileki - Semnani - Zazaish
I make - Ez dikim - Man kunem - A kenni - Ez kenu
I go - Ez diçim - Man şunem - A şenni - Ez şonu
I come - Ez têm - Man anem - A anni - Ez yenu
I say - Ez dibejim - Man gunem - A vanni - Ez vanu
In the south dialects of Zazaish comes for “I” in certain cases also a “A”. --Meyman 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Zaza spoken in Kayseri/Sariz
I am from Sariz/Kirkisrak village and they speak Kumranji I don't think Zazaki is spoken in Sariz. Ozgur Gerilla 16:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Erd
Erd is not an arabic word. Erd is related to the english earth and german erde. The arabic is however similar 'erz.
[edit] Zaza means something else
somebody linked a bunch of occurrences of "Zaza"; I removed the links for the obvious reason --Haruo 03:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Subjectivness of The Article
Since when has Zazaki been a language on its own? I hope Daraheni can answer me? And since when have a Zazaist(!) made conclusions on the Guranis? The same Guranis who calls themselves KURDS? Daraheni you tell me to add my opinion under the controversy, but why don't you do that? You are too subjective, and you know that yourself. If you are so right, why don't you explain the real reason behind the "non-Kurdish" Zaza movement?
Can you explain me these things:
Kirmancki (the name)
Why Gurans call themselves Kurds.
Why until recently Zazas considered themselves Kurds
Why the Gilaki were called "The Kurds of Tabaristan"
Why there are Kurmanji and Kirmancki mixed tribes
Why the Kirmancki people is also noted as "Ekrad" (Kurds) in Ottoman sources
Why Sheref Xan calls the Zazas Kurds
(Xizilbash 19:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC))
[edit] NPOV dispute [Language Classification]
The dispute should be solved prior to any further editing sections regarding the classification of Zazaki as an independent Indo-Iranian language and spoken by Zazas and borrowed by Kurds and/or a Kurdish language spoken by Kurds. All additional editing should be provided with references or should be removed due to the heavy disputes regarding this subject matter.
Please discuss your differences here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qiral (talk • contribs) 04:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, Dr. Martin Schwartz, a professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley whose specialty is ancient Iranian languages, is one of many linguists who see Zazaki as an independent language that is not mutually comprehensible with Kurmanci. Zazaki is a language in the Northern/Northwestern Iranian language family, and does not have an identical morphology to Kurmanci. Unfortunately (for us), he hasn't published on the subject, but in talking with him it's "common knowledge" in the American linguistics profession. eliotbates (talk) 07:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

